SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As for your study guide. I get it, you are trying to build responses that you can use when you are in the moment and feel these behaviors happening.

That part is reasonable except there are some expectations you should think about adjusting.

One- trauma affects memory like nothing else does. It’s actually a big symptom of PTSD. And many of the other things here are as well. I am not saying he has PTSD but the "vomiting" that you are talking about is his need to let it all out. It’s actually a very big need in reconciliation. Instead of listening to respond -just listen. Give him a chance to have emotional safety. Responses like "I can see how painful that is for you" (if it’s genuine) or "let me think about that more.

You do not need to make point during that. Just listen. It’s okay if you don’t respond and answer all the questions. He will ask them again if he wants to know. He is trying to vent. I get you are trying to track them so you can squelch them but he will eventually be able to do that on his own.

Trauma is very predictable and it makes the brain operate differently in the aftermath.

Everything you describe is less about abusing you, and more about him not knowing where to put the pain.

I am guessing he doesn’t have friends to talk to about this and isn’t in therapy. You being his outlet makes it feel miserable to you, especially because I think you still have this underlying shame that make it unbearable and feel like abuse.

Your husband needs to heal his trauma, you can not do that for him. But you need to be prepared that’s going to be a longer process. If you can focus on making him feel safe, that’s going to go along way in providing the environment for him to heal.

You are describing a normal bs. I know that is emotionally difficult but this genuinely is what it looks like. It’s very universal.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:12 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]

Abuse and domestic abuse have a legal definition and legal consequences. If I were speaking to your husband and he told me you were accusing him of abuse and manipulation solely based on your list of items of conversation topics, I would tell him to take this seriously and get out of the situation. That may sound harsh, but you are accusing him of a serious crime. I don't see how these things meet the definition. Like 5bluedrops, I see you doing the same things in your posts.

Unhinged,

"Repetition Compulsion"
GotTheMorbs, do some research on this topic. You're not gonna like it.

Well geez, let me at least look it up first, lol… I did, and it makes sense to me. I recognize that my participation in this site is part of the compulsion.Though, I feel like I’m shifting from needing the "outcome" to be that other people acknowledge all the micro-dynamics in the conversation that I point out and to respond differently, to wanting my emotional reaction to the micro-dynamics to change (i.e, the trigger lessens in intensity with each repeated exposure.) I already know that they’re not going to acknowledge the micro-dynamics and respond differently. It does sooth the trigger every time I accurately predict their responses though: "I knew this would happen, and I can see it all clearly. My grasp on reality is sound. I am okay."

Here's something else you probably won't like. Resolving pre-A marital issues has to take a back seat to resolving affair issues. There's simply no way around this.

This is something I struggled with in the beginning, but I eventually came to accept.
However, when I talk about needing him to accept fault and make changes in this particular context, I’m not talking about bout pre-A marital issues. I’m talking about things like, our child not being fed properly or our pets not being adequately cared for when I’m away at work, and then if I try to make those things easier for him— leaving prepared meals for him, writing checklists, implementing systems to reduce time-cost and frequency of care tasks— he acts offended, as if I’m calling him incompetent. And then he doesn’t utilize the ways I’ve made it easier for him to take care of our pets or child— prepared meals uneaten in the fridge, checklists not even looked at, systems disregarded— and they’re not properly cared for. So I try to address it with him again…

Then he’ll engage in a manipulation tactic like telling me "Nothing I ever do is good enough for you" (Accusation of shifting goalposts. As if I didn’t leave very specific instructions that define exact standards for care so the goalposts can’t be shifted; it’s just that he chose not to follow or even read the instructions and failed to meet the standards for care, and he’s trying to flip it around to make it so that I look like the impossible-to-please, unreasonable one) Or, as I mentioned earlier, he’ll say something like, "How many time have you gone away? She hasn’t starved. You’re just making up things to be mad about." (Ignoring that the standard of care isn’t ‘not starving’ but being well-nourished, minimizing the ‘badness’ of what’s happening when I’m not home to care for her, making me seem like the unreasonable one, and gaslighting me by suggesting I’m making issues up, rather than there actually being something wrong here.)

He’s also directly lied to me about their care. Like, I only have 5 laying hens who either lay 1 or 0 eggs each day. How is he gonna tell me he collected the eggs every day except for on the day I came home, and I go out to the coop and collect 12 eggs— which is at minimum 3 days worth— from underneath a hen that’s gone broody, who I now have to break because the weather is 101* and she will literally die if she sits in the hot coop all day? But then I’m the bad guy if I go in and look at the eggs he did collect and start tallying up the numbers for the dates written on them and get upset because the objective data suggests that he gathered them all up at once and fabricated the dates. (No, the 5 hens did not lay 9 eggs on the 16th.) But what would happen if I said something to him about it and how I know, do you think? He would call me crazy for doing that, as if it’s not his fault I feel the need to count the eggs, or he would tell me I’m just "looking for things to be mad about." Like I’m just trying to make our kid gets enough to eat and make sure my chickens don’t fucking die, dude. Is that too much to ask for while I’m away working for our family? I’m already barely keeping it together at work because I’m bending over backwards to make shit as easy as possible for him while I’m not there prior to leaving and neglecting what I need to do to prepare myself; now apparently I have to drive 8 hours across the state to take our daughter to my mom’s house and spend more money than I’m making at work to pay a chicken sitter.

These are important issues I’m trying to address, with really severe consequences if we don’t address them, and he’s systematically removing my ability to communicate through them with him. So I’ve been trying to address the defensiveness and the manipulation tactics, which, as you can see, is going absolutely swimmingly /s. I haven’t tried to touch the pre-A marital issues in a hot minute.

I recognize that my participation in this site is part of the compulsion.

That is not why I recommended looking up Repetition Compulsion, although I understand, sort of, why you made the connection.

This has to do with your step-father and the trauma he inflicted upon you. Take a little time and dig deeper into the concept. I'm not a psychologist or counselor, so I certainly could be wrong here. A few of the things that you've written in this threat reminded me of things other members wrote about years ago. I simply thought it might help you regarding your husband and other relationships in your life.

As for your participation in this community I can only hope you'll take a few moments to reflect on its entirety. Despite all of the clashes and conflicts we've had, we're still here. You're still seeking our help, and some of us are still trying to help you.

...I feel like I’m shifting from needing the "outcome" to be that other people acknowledge all the micro-dynamics in the conversation that I point out and to respond differently, to wanting my emotional reaction to the micro-dynamics to change (i.e, the trigger lessens in intensity with each repeated exposure.) I already know...

So basically I'm hyper analytical about every minute interaction..

I'd imagine that you already know how uncommon this is and where this anxiety comes from. It's something I try to keep in mind while engaging with you (feel free to analyze that ).

As I mentioned before, I truly hope that one day you'll find a way to slay this demon and find the healing and peace you seek.

As for the kid's nutrition and the chickens... well, I don't have much advice to offer.

Then he’ll engage in a manipulation tactic like telling me "Nothing I ever do is good enough for you"

That may not be a manipulation tactic. In fact, I'd say he's trying, in his own way, to express his own feelings of insecurity, low self-esteem, whatever. His issues, of course. Sometimes just listening has its own benefits, you know?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 12:52 AM, Thursday, May 21st]

Hikingout,

We're not discussing the affair and his feelings about it at all. Last night was the first time in months. I have been practically begging him to talk to me about it every time I sense him triggering, and he just refuses. Like I said in my other post, it might be because I haven't been good about not engaging in those coping mechanisms of mine that trigger him, and maybe his subconscious logic is that if I'm still doing those things, then I must not care how he feels, so why share them? But I did bring this up to him, and he seem almost surprised to hear it, and just shrugged like, "Maybe." and didn't offer any comment on it. So maybe he doesn't even know why he's not sharing his feelings. Or he does and just won't tell me. (How am I supposed to fix it if he won't tell me?)

But like, you and so many of the others here are imagining that he's just doing normal BS things when we're having conversations about the A, and that's not what's happening here at all. I can absolutely handle those things and honestly welcomed them when they were happening, because I knew he was making progress towards healing. Up until last night, it's just been like he put a wall up, and we can't even work through normal everyday things with very urgent consequences without him gaslighting me, being defensive, engaging in the manipulation tactics, etc. It's way bigger than a "chicken scratch" in comparison to gunshots; it's more like a stabbing in comparison to a gunshot. And like, because I shot him first I'm trying to make allowances for the stabbing, and I want to forgive him for it, but I still need the stabbing to fucking stop, you know? It's really hard to empathize with and comfort the person you shot while they are actively stabbing you. Like, I can't change the bandages and apply antiseptic to his bullet hole while I'm actively bleeding out; I need the medical supplies myself. So my study guide responses are like body armor to protect me from further knife wounds, not a knife to stab him back with.

Like it's not about the laundry. It's about the fact that I'm trying to get us to a place where there's a livable compromise, where I do well enough to accomplish and maintain a reasonable, functional, sufficiently clean house, and he works on his OCD to get to a place where less-than-perfect-but-reasoanbly-clean is tolerable for him. And if he's painting me in his head to be lazy and sitting around all day, not tending to my half of the responsibilities because I supposedly don't care about his feelings, even though I'm at least intermittently busting my ass trying to make things better for him because I definitely do care and want to make him happy... What reason does he have to work on his half of the compromise? If he can convince himself that it's been a month since the last time I did laundry, that only serves to reinforce the story he's telling himself. So if I'm standing in the laundry room looking at the clean dress I wore to church literally a week ago, reality is obviously different than he remembers, but it serves him better if he just "remembers differently." If he just gaslights me and it works, well, not only can he shift the goal posts so that I have to meet ever higher standards for cleanliness while making me feel like shit, but he doesn't need to work on his OCD. In this way, he maintains control over me. That's abusive.

Even just today, we were standing in the kitchen, and he remarked how nice it was to have clean counter space and that he was proud of himself for doing it while I was gone. I was like, "Seriously? You don't remember me literally not going to sleep the night before my flight so I could work on the house, including clearing off the counters, so that you would be more comfortable while I was gone?" All he did was sweep the floor and throw out all the fresh fruit I spent a shit ton of money on "because there were fruit flies." And we weren't even keeping the fruit on the part of the counter that we use for food prep! To his credit, at least he admitted "maybe" he was "remembering" the condition of the house before the big push I made to clean it up prior to leaving. But it just goes to illustrate how he doesn't notice what I actually do, and how negative of a view he has of me in his mind. It seems to me that that's the view he has significant motive to preserve.

And idk, is that related to the infidelity?

"And idk, is that related to the infidelity?"

His extreme defensiveness, probably. Could it be that he is now "Hyper blame-avoidant" because he fears that infidelity could happen again as a consequence to something he has done wrong in your eyes? So he has to either find a way to show that you are guilty of the same wrong (whether you are or not), or somehow else avoiding blame by either lying or some other tactic you rightly or wrongly call abuse.

And honestly, not to pick a fight with you, but we have seen you rage out here pretty intensely, and he probably feels winning an argument with you is a life or death thing (figuratively), and that even infidelity could be a consequence of losing an argument about how many times he checked the chicken coop or whatever.

In other words, the infidelity (or near infidelity- I don't think you have ever mentioned if you actually crossed the line beyond making a plan to meet up) is related because it made for him the stakes of your arguments so much higher. So he uses more and more shady tactics in your arguments, which will never get past your hyper-aware mind. So then you call him out on that, and then you are the bad guy. and then it escalates, way out of proportion to the original offense.

Am I on the right track?

Sorry. Please let me explain in another way.

You insist that he is abusing and manipulating you, and that reasonable discussions have not and can not resolve your issues.

You should both separate and get away from this unhealthy situation. I would give you both the same advice.

Whether I believe you or not doesn't matter. Whether it's objectively true or not doesn't matter. If he is abusing you, that is unhealthy. Neither of you should be in that situation, and you should both immediately remove yourselves from it. If there is a teeny, tiny, very, very slim chance that he is not abusing you; the situation is still unhealthy because simply being accused of abuse is serious too.

This is advice for you in particular since you are here. Don't stay in a relationship where you feel you are being abused and manipulated. Just don't. You can't control his actions, so stop trying to control him.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 1:38 PM, Thursday, May 21st]

CantBeMeEither,

His extreme defensiveness, probably. Could it be that he is now "Hyper blame-avoidant" because he fears that infidelity could happen again as a consequence to something he has done wrong in your eyes? So he has to either find a way to show that you are guilty of the same wrong (whether you are or not), or somehow else avoiding blame by either lying or some other tactic you rightly or wrongly call abuse.

Ohhhhh that could be it! How insightful. I'll float this to him re: the recent defensiveness and see what he says about it. If that's the case, that's honestly such a good thing. I know that he struggled with blaming himself for a good while there. I'm sure I didn't help in the beginning If he's finally rejected the blame, that's so big for him!

And honestly, not to pick a fight with you, but we have seen you rage out here pretty intensely, and he probably feels winning an argument with you is a life or death thing (figuratively), and that even infidelity could be a consequence of losing an argument about how many times he checked the chicken coop or whatever.

Ironically, it's the manipulation tactics he uses that trigger me and cause me to rage out. We talked about this. I was explaining that it's not the content of the argument, but the way he argues. He was like, "Well I guess if being mindful of these things would stop you from freaking out at me, I could try it." Uh, yeah, please do. I wish he didn't have the tone he had, where he was trying to make it sound like a ridiculous ask, but at least the words were agreement. I have it recorded. I think if I memorize the study guide and work on utilizing those protective responses, it'll help keep me mindful and I'll be better able to regulate my emotions in the moment. I'll make sure to reassure him that nothing he does is going to make me turn to infidelity again.

In other words, the infidelity (or near infidelity- I don't think you have ever mentioned if you actually crossed the line beyond making a plan to meet up)

This most recent time was an EA, sexting, and a plan to meet up, though I know the exact categorization makes no difference to him. It's all infidelity. Previous instances from several years ago were one-time sexual infidelities without emotional involvement.

Am I on the right track?

I think so! Thank you so much!

Im going to try to be gentler and a little more compassionate here since last time I clearly pissed you off. Its not my intention; to the contrary I see a pair of stuck and frustrated people floundering in a familiar way, and I wish it wasnt so.

I really think emotional disregulation is causing both your husband and your style of communication to tip into the adversarial, accusatory, and defensive realms of litigation. I suspect you are employing similar tactics to him that you outlined in your study guide, because I can see you tend to use them here when our pressure makes you feel attacked. I think you understand that you do this because you feel attacked by what we are saying.

You arent trying to abuse us, manipulate us, systematically put us in a power down situation where reality is adjusted into whats convenient. Thats not your intention. You are just trying to defend a hurting little girl who deserved better. Are you not?

Does it not stand to reason that your husbands behavior has a similar motivation, moulded in like by pain transmitted?

Try to see that how you were hurt became a lasting and festering illness, and that he now has it as well, because you communicated it to him. You cannot reasonably expect him to possess better emotional regulation than you yourself possess, can you?

Yesterday, I was sorely tempted to catalogue some strawmen in your reply to me, replies based on quotes out of context, reference some distorted comparisons, and cross reference your study guides replies to the bullet points that matched your tactics, and finish by saying "if you have a counter to my counter, I know you are intentionally being manipulative". I didnt do this, because It would be bitter and churlish and fail to make progress. It would just add poison where we dont need it. Its a show stopper, not a door opener.

And I think that strategy would be that way if employed on your husband as well.

Youve said a few times that his tactics are systematic. Im not accusing, Im asking;

Is that hyperbole or literally the case?

Could he just be disregulated and trying to survive, as you yourself come to be?

I think its worth attempting to internalize the ways in which you share the pain.

I dont think either of you intend to abuse the other, but you probably both are at least making each other feel abused. If it cant be healed, it cant. Sometimes that happens.

Birds who mate for life have infidelity. The betrayed birds sometimes peck the shit out of the wayward. They lack the words, I suppose to communicate pain without abuse. But it goes to show that some of what you are seeing is highly natural. Pre human. An observable thing. Its still abuse. Its not ok. Im not defending any of the abuse of waywards you see everywhere. Throw a rock and youll hit multiple examples around here.

Im just saying, as infidelity sadly happens, so it is with the retaliatory behaviors. And neither one should, but do.

Im not sure if you mentioned if he has support systems or therapy, or outlets.

I wonder if he is sometimes grey rocking or employing the 180 in his bid to cope. When I did that, my wife said I was abusing her by shutting her out, stonewalling. Im sure it felt that way to her. But I was just trying to protect myself.

Being accused of abuse while you are dying from it is the worst. So I both empathize with your experience of that, and caution you from being on the supply side. Try really hard not to do that.

5bluedrops,

I suspect you are employing similar tactics to him that you outlined in your study guide, because I can see you tend to use them here when our pressure makes you feel attacked.

Let's start here, because that feels like a big topic.

Which tactics do you think I'm employing, and what specifically makes you think that I'm employing them? Specific examples would help me understand what you mean.

I would like to add, before you answer, that when I say "manipulation tactics," it has a very particular meaning. It's not simply "getting someone to do what you want," but doing so in an unfair way that unbalances the other person and keeps the power in the manipulator's hands. Google's AI explains manipulation and how one is supposed to protect oneself well here:

Manipulation is the act of covertly influencing or controlling someone's thoughts, emotions, or behaviors to gain an unfair advantage. It typically involves deceptive or underhanded methods, prioritizing the manipulator’s needs at the expense of others. Understanding and identifying this behavior is crucial for protecting your mental health and personal boundaries.

Common Tactics

Manipulators rely on specific psychological tricks to shift power dynamics in their favor:

- Gaslighting: Making you question your own reality, memory, or sanity.

- Guilt-Tripping: Playing on your empathy to make you feel responsible for their actions or emotions.

- Love-Bombing: Using excessive flattery or affection early on to lower your defenses.

- Isolation: Slowly cutting you off from friends and family to make you entirely dependent on them.

- Shifting Blame: Twisting arguments so that you are made to apologize even when you are the one who was wronged.

How to Protect Yourself

If you suspect you are dealing with a manipulative person, there are concrete steps you can take to reclaim control:

- Set Firm Boundaries: Clearly communicate what you will and will not tolerate, and do not compromise on them.

- Observe, Don't React: Manipulators look for emotional reactions. Staying calm and objective prevents them from using your feelings against you.

- Verify Information: Rely on facts rather than taking what the manipulator says at face value.

- Seek Perspective: Discuss your experiences with a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional to get an outside opinion.

Is that an agreeable definition of "manipulation tactics?" I recognize the list of tactics is a short one and not exhaustive, and some transcend conversation alone. I have the urge to respond with my own thoughts about my communication style and how that interacts with the dynamics here, but I'll reserve them until I have the answers to these questions.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 9:53 PM, Thursday, May 21st]