SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If there's one thing I’ve noticed since all this started, it’s that betrayal has patterns. The shock, the loss of trust, the anger, the hypervigilance, and that sickening feeling that your reality just got ripped apart, it all repeats in story after story.

That is why communities like this are so valuable. Someone else has walked through a blast zone that looks remarkably similar to what you are living through right now. They can tell you what helped, what hurt, what they wish they had done differently, and they can point out things you are just too close to see.

But similar doesn't mean identical.

Every betrayal has its own nuances. A drunken one-night stand confessed the next morning just isn't the same beast as a years-long secret relationship. A spouse who immediately comes clean isn't in the same position as someone you're still catching in lies a year later. You can't look at a decades-long marriage with kids, a house, and totally intertwined lives through the exact same lens as a six-month dating relationship.

Even two betrayals that look identical on paper will hit the betrayed partners completely differently. You have your own history, your own kids, your own financial mess to untangle, and your own breaking points. The person standing in front of you after discovery might also be acting completely differently than the person standing in front of someone else.

That’s why I get really cautious around absolute advice primarily on other websites (starting with r and ending with eddit).

"Leave immediately."
"Never forgive a cheater."
"You have to stay for the kids."
"If they show remorse, give them another chance."

People shout these things because it reflects their own survival, but they don't actually know enough about your life to make your call for you.

Take the wisdom, there is plenty. Take the warnings, most are valid. Listen when twenty different people describe the exact same behavior and tell you where it eventually led them. Patterns absolutely matter, and sometimes the advice that makes us the most uncomfortable is exactly what we need to look at. People here have done exactly that for me, sometimes forcing me to look at things I didn't particularly want to look at, and it has led to some pretty significant realizations about myself and my situation.

But don't surrender your own judgment just because someone else survived their betrayal differently than you might survive yours.

Nobody online knows every conversation you’ve had. Nobody knows every year of your marriage, every lie, every moment of genuine remorse, every manipulation, or every quiet moment when you're trying to figure out if the person standing beside you is actually changing. We just see snapshots of each other's lives. You have to live yours.

I think we put far too much pressure on betrayed people to make some enormous, permanent declaration while they are still in shock. Sometimes the only honest answer today is I don't know yet. A great many people here have helped me look inward enough to finally understand that.

You are allowed to take this day by day.

You are allowed to try reconciliation and later realize too much was broken. Walking away after genuinely trying isn't a failure, and it doesn't mean you wasted your time. You just learned what you needed to learn to make your decision.

You are also allowed to divorce and later discover that you've both changed enough that reconciliation is worth looking at again. Divorce doesn't magically erase your history.

These decisions don't have to be life sentences. Trying to reconcile doesn't sign away your right to leave later. Divorcing doesn't mean you can never change your mind. If you want to stay today and want to pack your bags tomorrow, you aren't weak or indecisive. You're just processing a nightmare while new information and emotions keep hitting you. There is zero shame in that.

You don't need to pick the path that gets the most upvotes or approval from strangers. You just need to find the one you can actually live with.

Listen to the people here. Learn from their mistakes. Borrow the wisdom that helps you see your own situation more clearly. But at the end of the day, there might be thousands of people who understand betrayal, but there's only one person who has lived every second of yours.

YES!!!

I agree completely.

I’ll add a thought, I think the vast majority of members here can’t be talked in to any particular path.

Coaching someone to run or stay is a waste of time and energy.

I gave that up early on, especially when I was wrong about two members back-to-back.

One member’s WS, based on all the posts, sounded like they were working hard to change, and I advised the guy to try R. His wife took the A underground for the next year, she simply learned how to say all the right things without changing a thing about her behavior.

In the same week, I told a good pal at the time, that I saw too many red flags and that he should walk away from his M. A year later, I got a direct message where he was angry with me, that ‘me of all people’ had given on him and his M. Apparently, his R went great.

That ended me ‘telling’ anyone the path they should take.

We all find a way through.

I found SI by accident on a search about infidelity and divorce.

I’ve often said, before SI, I assumed every single A ever was because the WS had quit the M. And to a certain extent, I still find that to be true. Ultimately, I had never heard of R or that M’s could be rebuilt or repaired.

So, when I showed up here, I wanted to know more about the concept of R.

I was called an idiot in my opening JFO thread for thinking about staying. The poster edited it out, but he wasn’t the only one who thought staying was a bad idea.

Luckily, I didn’t sign up for SI for any level of validation, I was just curious about other people’s experiences with the horrors of infidelity.

As you have observed Gemmy, I found people who gave me space to figure it out.

For a while, my R was precarious at best, and I had plenty of members here still telling me to run.

Some of my favorite members, and most supportive pals ended up D. I’m just happy they found their peace — or at least have a chance to heal.

Of course, some other members who R’d have helped a ton as well.

I struggle to pay it forward these days, because I’m healed up and my advice tends to skip some time and steps, because I just want people to get there faster and not be trapped on ANY path.

As long as folks get back a sense of self worth and an idea of the direction they want to go, they’ll eventually be fine.

A big part of my R is knowing I’ll be great no matter what the outcome of the M.

If there is any silver lining to any of this, is that life offered me a reset — a chance to make my existence better overall, despite the immense trauma I experienced.

The magic of SI is no magic at all, it is a bunch of brave souls sharing their grief and finding a way to heal.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 5:23 PM, Thursday, August 20th]

Yep. The only person that has to pay for your decisions, is you.

The magic of SI is no magic at all,

Oh, I disagree! There is something truly magical about this community.

I came here to find out if reconciliation was really possible and, if so, how to go about it. And I learned. I learned about infidelity, how to survive it, reconciliation and divorce. I learned about love and relationships. What's surprised me the most, however, is how much I learned about myself. That's where the magic happened.

Along the way I've "met" some of the most remarkable people I've ever known and developed friendships I truly and deeply cherish.

So, yeah... there's something magical about SI.

Listen to the people here. Learn from their mistakes. Borrow the wisdom that helps you see your own situation more clearly. But at the end of the day, there might be thousands of people who understand betrayal, but there's only one person who has lived every second of yours.

It's sad this even needs to be restated: anyone opposing personal agency is missing the point.

All anyone can offer is advice based on their own lived experiences, readings, and logical analysis of what you've written. Ultimately, the person seeking advice is completely free to take it or leave it.

That’s why I get really cautious around absolute advice primarily on other websites (starting with r and ending with eddit).

"Leave immediately."

"Never forgive a cheater."

"You have to stay for the kids."

"If they show remorse, give them another chance."

I've always enjoyed that site, but it's not for everyone. You get far less nuance and far fewer well-thought-out perspectives—it usually boils down to copy-and-paste basics. Not always though but you generally have to dig for the gems.

Advice forums only go so far anyway. I've seen people ask for guidance, receive overwhelmingly strong consensus pointing in one direction, and do the complete opposite. I've got a mate who's built this way: the entire world could tell him not to touch a fence because it's live, but he still has to grab it and feel the shock himself before he'll accept that it shouldn't be touched. Some people can ask for advice all day, but ultimately they just need to live it out first. More often than not they end up regretting not listening, but not always. At the end of the day, the choice was always theirs to make.

EDIT: Skip this and see BluerThanBlue's much better response

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:46 PM, Thursday, August 20th]

Unhinged —

Oh, I disagree! There is something truly magical about this community.

I was aiming more for "no magic" to the work or the healing work we all do.

I think the concentrated amount of kind souls found in one community — on the dreaded Internet of all places — is definitely some level of magic.

I agree that overly hostile and prescriptive advice, such as "Just leave him!" isn't helpful, but I'm going to push back a little bit on the overall guidance that every situation is incredibly unique and nuanced, or that every BS has the luxury of staying in limbo for however long they feel like it.

Sometimes, when you see someone in the path of a moving train, you don't say, "Well, take as long as you like to think about whether you want to get crushed." Sometimes, the only option is to scream, "Look out!" or try to tackle them out of the path, if necessary.

If there's one thing SI has taught me, it's that infidelity-- and cheater's behavior in general-- follows very similar patterns, regardless of age, time, place, or culture. There's an almost breath-taking consistency to the "Cheater's Handbook." For example, I've yet to see a positive outcome from rugsweeping. I have yet to see an example of a cheater remaining in contact with their AP and not continuing their affair in some capacity.

And I certainly wouldn't tell someone whose spouse has been cheating and/or lying to them since parachute pants were in style that there's a chance that their WS will magically grow a conscience and become an honest, faithful person.

There are also certain situations when "wait and see" is not an option. If your spouse is actively cheating, and you're still having sex with them, you are at risk of contracting an STD. What if your cheater becomes pregnant or gets someone else pregnant while you're waiting around to see if Reconciliation is possible? What if your cheater is bleeding marital funds and driving the family into debt with their extramarital activities? What if your cheater gets fired or reprimanded because of a work place affair, or is accused of sexual harassment and is no longer employable?

Or perhaps what if you're slowly driving yourself insane and into pits of despair by the cheater's lies, manipulation, and emotional abuse? What about the toll it takes on children to grow up in high-conflict environments where one parent is checked out because they're cheating while the other can't fully engage as a parent because they're consumed by their spouse's infidelity?

In summary, I'll put it very simply: I don't know anyone who regretted their divorce or thought they rushed into divorce. Contrary to popular belief, the reflexive instinct in the wake of Dday is to rugsweep and get everything back to normal as quickly as possible. But I do know many, many people who regret wasting years of their lives, allowing themselves to be crushed under crippling depression and grief, and raising their kids in toxicity because they stayed in the cesspool of infidelity too damn long.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:09 PM, Thursday, August 20th]

Take what you can use, leave the rest.

I appreciated getting lots of different perspectives in my journey. Even WBFA’s But when you do that you will get people who don’t agree and you can’t please everyone, and you don’t need to please anyone but yourself.

I deeply respect BTB’s perspective, but I have to say I don’t think the train model is useful. Yes, there are foreseeable risks in attempting R that we would like to warn people of. But there are risks in driving a car that we still allow each person to choose to accept. We have to trust betrayed partners to chart their own course, not only is it the right thing to do, it’s the only thing we can do. Just add our story to the pile and allow others the opportunity to see what patterns they can perceive and apply to their own situation.

How are things post anniversary?

I came here looking for other BS’s because I felt all alone! Reading about other people going through the same pain was a great comfort to me. Knowing I’m not alone in my pain gave me peace.

I also know everyone here is giving the best advice they can and trying to help others going through infidelity.

BluerThanBlue is exactly right, I rugswept to get back to normal for my son but if I didn’t have a son I would’ve divorced my wife asap! Please don’t misunderstand, we have a good relationship now but even she said if we’d divorced years ago she would have been free from her guilt and I would have been free from my pain sooner.

I deeply respect BTB’s perspective, but I have to say I don’t think the train model is useful. Yes, there are foreseeable risks in attempting R that we would like to warn people of. But there are risks in driving a car that we still allow each person to choose to accept. We have to trust betrayed partners to chart their own course, not only is it the right thing to do, it’s the only thing we can do.

I do believe most newly betrayed that find their way here are more often looking for advice than consolation/commiseration. Sure, we have our lived experience, but we also have listened to the experience of others, and compared what did and did not work/apply in our own stories. And although there are rarely 100% certainties on this site, there are some things that come close to it. Don't do the pick me dance; don't sleep with your partner if they are still actively in their affair; tell the AP's betrayed partner are all things that we can advise. And if it's applied like a train that's barreling their way, then so be it. Some apply advice with a softer touch. Some apply it with a hammer. EVERYBODY responds differently to the advice they are given, but often the differences are small. That is why even though generalizations are not permitted, we surely can see and apply them with an often reasonable sense of accuracy. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have pinned topics at the top of the JFO forum with almost boilerplate steps one can take to help get their footing back.

@inkhulk

I deeply respect BTB’s perspective, but I have to say I don’t think the train model is useful. Yes, there are foreseeable risks in attempting R that we would like to warn people of. But there are risks in driving a car that we still allow each person to choose to accept. We have to trust betrayed partners to chart their own course, not only is it the right thing to do, it’s the only thing we can do. Just add our story to the pile and allow others the opportunity to see what patterns they can perceive and apply to their own situation.

Very interesting response. I quite liked the analogy but it got me thinking, so I ran the numbers:

With regards to the car driving analogy, It would appear to be entirely a false equivalence between an everyday minor risk and a genuine statistical gamble.

Data on post-infidelity reconciliation is notoriously slippery, fluctuating wildly depending on who is paying for the study and how loosely one defines "success". Yet even if we look at the absolute gold-standard, sunshine-and-rainbows reports heavily biased towards marriage-counseling success, the numbers are pretty grim. Optimistic studies suggest roughly 50 to 70 percent of couples attempt to stick it out initially. Give it five years, and that retention rate plummets closer to 20 or 30 percent. If you raise the bar for success from "we haven't legally divorced yet" to actual emotional safety, genuine trust, and mutual happiness, you are looking at a dismal 10 to 15 percent success rate. Throw in the fact that serial cheaters are roughly two to three times more likely to repeat the offence, and the outlook becomes even less inviting.

Comparing those odds to taking the car out for a spin is, frankly, a bit mad. The odds of being injured or killed in a car journey in the UK (just where I happened to find these stats) sit around 0.0001 percent; over 99.99 percent of trips end with nothing worse than a mild bout of traffic-induced frustration. Attempting reconciliation, by contrast, carries an 85 to 90 percent chance of re-traumatisation, eventual separation, or settling into a quietly miserable cold war.

If turning the ignition key came with an 85 percent chance of wrapping your bumper around a lamppost, the MOT would be abolished and driving would be reclassified as an extreme sport. I suspect this would be the case even if chance of accident was at 50 percent. Warning betrayed partners about the overwhelming odds should never be about stripping them of their agency. It is simply giving them an accurate map of a treacherous road.

All of this said, the website Gemmy references is too reductive. The comments generally don't bother to give this context. It normally is reduced to: Get a backbone, leave her, got to therapy and hammer the gym. I wouldn't even say that's bad advice to be honest, just too reductive to someone in the middle of a crisis.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:24 AM, Friday, August 21st]

Having been a part of this group for years, my observations are that people come here initially to survive infidelity. Whether they R or D or something in between, we are trying to survive the initial stages.

I am definitely for people R. Othered here are not.

It is unfortunate that there are times where my age and experiences with cheating boyfriends and spouse can make me recommend that R is NOT the best option in some cases.

I typically advise people in relationships or marriages w/ serial cheaters and/or abusive relationships to get out - either leave or D etc.

For some people — leaving is not an option. It might be financial reasons or health issues etc that force people to stay together. In those cases I really hope the betrayed can make a life for themselves and find some joy / peace / contentment.

Just trying to make the best of a bad situation is sometimes all that can be done.

I think we can all agree that the "pick me" situation doesn’t work.

I think we can all agree that stalking the AP’s social media after Dday doesn’t help the betrayed either (in the long run).

But beyond that, every single person will have a unique experience with their situation and the opportunity to learn from it and make it out of infidelity will be another opportunity to share their experiences with others.

PS I didn’t know about SI at the time of my H’s midlife crisis affair. Had I known I most likely would have been D b/c I’m certain no one would have thought giving him a second or third chance was a good idea. Luckily he recognized his own shortcomings and changed and is no longer a lying cheating jerk. Miracles can (and do) happen. The odds were stacked against us- but we are one of the lucky ones.

Very interesting response. I quite liked the analogy but it got me thinking, so I ran the numbers:

Cool story, bro. Those are some awful specific numbers to not cite sources for. I more than welcome it in a follow up.

Perhaps you would like my analogy more if I said cliff jumping, or cave exploration, or a myriad of other risky things people are allowed to do with informed consent. I’m quite certain that traffic deaths overwhelm all of them combined due to the sheer volume of miles traveled and I personally find our societal comfort with that to be odd, but that is more of a personal thing. The point is that unless you plan to run for office and make divorce obligatory upon discovery of betrayal, all we can do is share our experience and then start to share how we interpreted it. But once we stray from our experience and start acting like our interpretation of events is universal and that others are fools for not adopting that same interpretation, it poisons the whole experience.
I sat in Gemmy’s seat for the better part of two years. I was unendingly grateful for perspective and advice. When people started telling me what to do, I told them where they could shove it.

Cool story, bro. Those are some awful specific numbers to not cite sources for. I more than welcome it in a follow up.

Sure, here you go:

Allen, E. S., & Atkins, D. C. (2012). Journal of Family Psychology, 26(1), 74–85.

Amato, P. R., & Previti, D. (2003). Journal of Family Issues, 24(5), 602–626.

Knopp, K., et al. (2017). Archives of Sexual Behavior, 46(8), 2301–2311.

Wagner, E., & Nickerson, K. (2026). Clinical Review of Post-Infidelity Outcomes.

(When I said I ran the numbers, I used AI to get a cross section of different stats in an attempt to eliminate biases)

I’ll also re-quote my previous caveat: "Data on post-infidelity reconciliation is notoriously slippery, fluctuating wildly depending on who is paying for the study and how loosely one defines 'success'." So yes, the numbers are specific, but they come straight out of the clinical literature on post-infidelity retention.

Perhaps you would like my analogy more if I said cliff jumping, or cave exploration, or a myriad of other risky things people are allowed to do with informed consent.

As for swapping car crashes for cliff jumping or cave exploration... that actually kind of proves my point. Society treats cliff jumping, skydiving, and deep-sea diving as inherently dangerous, high-risk activities. People who partake are required to sign waiver forms, undergo safety briefings, and acknowledge the steep failure rate before stepping off the edge.

If someone came onto a support forum asking whether they should go cliff jumping without a guide, the community would overwhelmingly warn them about the high probability of ending up on the rocks.

Looking at the data, even the most wildly optimistic clinical figures, you would be hard-pressed to find a mainstream, everyday activity with a long-term failure or re-traumatisation rate in the 70% to 90% range where people don't warn you. When the risk profile is that steep, giving people an unvarnished map of the terrain isn't dictating what they should do; it’s making sure they know how far the drop is before they jump.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:35 PM, Friday, August 21st]

Soolers—-The problem with statistics is you can’t translate them into who fits in which box. We do not know who is going to successfully reconcile or divorce.

It would be like "why get married when 50 percent of marriage end in divorce?" That’s in essence what people who say divorce immediately are doing to the people who want to reconcile.

In the other perspective of what Gemmy wrote—-it’s true telling someone what to do with their marriage isn’t helpful. There is a process most want to go through before they move to 50/59 custody or the other ways they are going to upend their life. Not to mention the emotions of you do not fall out of love with someone immediately even if they did a horrible thing. Most people seek to understand it first and try and figure out where it leaves them.

To me the only sane advice to give is:

Focus on you and your individual healing.

Require your ws to seek the same in order to even consider whether this marriage can stay together.

And after there has been that time for recovery, then assess is the ws moving things in the right direction—are they working to make amends? A bs who has worked in their healing will start to recognize and gain clarity about what they want and will objectively be able to decide if the ws he moved the needle enough to even attempting it.

I have seen ws who have done heinous shit that I didn’t think would be forgivable. Some of them had their marriage end in divorce. Others are happily reconciled, and their bs’s were here to affirm that was true.

The marital outcome will never be as important as the individual healing. Because someone who has had time to heal and deliberate will most likely make the right choice for themselves moving forward.

I have often said to ink- I hate that I encouraged your reconciliation, it seemed to be what you wanted so I was trying to help you get there. And his response is always I had a process I needed to go through to understand it wasn’t possible. And he is right, no one comes here to be told what to do, it’s really in the telling to one another, sharing what worked and what didn’t that the path is illuminated.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:37 PM, Friday, August 21st]

@hikingout

Yeah, I don't disagree with spirt of what you are saying, I was merely steel manning BluerThanBlue's post. Not that I feel it needed it, it's an outstanding post.

I don't think anything you've wrote contradicts what she wrote. Or what I wrote for that matter. Do you feel I'm disagreeing with what you've said?

EDIT: I guess on second reading:

It would be like "why get married when 50 percent of marriage end in divorce?" That’s in essence what people who say divorce immediately are doing to the people who want to reconcile.

This kind of does. Ok I get that. Again, divorce is horrible. Having witnessed many in my time as we all have. I view infidelity as abuse though. A divorce is just a breakup with logistical nightmares and extra costs. Reconciliation is making yourself open to continued abuse.

I think both things can be true: Focus on you and your individual healing. If you are to go down the path of reconciliation here's some sketchy stats, anecdotal evidence and lived experiences why that may be risky. But do you boo.

I think that's a reasonable approach. Do you think that's wrong?

I have seen ws who have done heinous shit that I didn’t think would be forgivable. Some of them had their marriage end in divorce. Others are happily reconciled, and their bs’s were here to affirm that was true.

Trying not to bite, I know you do mean to but statements like this trigger me into tangents, which I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to debate this but this is where my brain goes when you say something like this:

I have seen some victims of heinous abuse stick it out and I didn't think it would be forgivable. Some of them had their marriage end in divorce. Others are happily reconciled they didn't get beaten to death.

Logically a statement like the above is right, people can change and reform. However even accepting that some people need to go through it to understand - and make their own choices... should we not at least point them at the stats, anecdotes or lived experienced of people who wish they did leave?

But this is predicated on my belief that infidelity as an extreme form of psychological abuse. I know not everyone subscribes to this and I won't argue that here. I'm just explaining that when you accept that this is my view, you may understand why it triggers me so.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:13 PM, Friday, August 21st]

If someone came onto a support forum asking whether they should go cliff jumping without a guide, the community would overwhelmingly warn them about the high probability of ending up on the rocks.

Fantastic. He’s been warned. He is proceeding with eyes wide open. We can now move on to doing our best to support him in his journey.

Sorry Gemmy, the intent of your post was well meaning, but it appears it has become another outcome debate thread.

I still think most members do take Gemmy’s observations to heart and find their own path.

I also know how hard it was to get my M to a place that was worthy of me sticking around.

Our MC was in the counselor biz for 40-years, he just retired. He was a BS who D — something he told us at the end of our sessions — his wife had an exit A. His work was based on not coaching to a specific outcome, he tried to find the best, safest path forward for every couple. His career stats that he kept reflected what my AI stat source stated, up to 70 percent of couples TRY to stay together after infidelity and only 50 percent of those couples are still together after five years.

In a nutshell, our MC said it was a coin toss, and only if my wife and I both wanted the same outcome.

I’ve ultimately learned, my life isn’t a statistic.

I aimed for the result I got, and I’ve never been happier.

In real life I know miserable M couples that never had infidelity, I know couples who experienced infidelity and are miserable who stayed together, and I know happy R couples and I know miserable divorced people, and super happy divorced people in my circle of family and friends.

My own brother is three times divorced and may be the happiest human I’ve ever encountered.

I really only want members who show up here to find peace, regardless of their path.

I love that Ink Hulk has a new beginning. I love that WaitedWayTooLong found some peace. And I love my life.

I think Gemmy will find his path forward.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 3:46 PM, Friday, August 21st]

I want to take a moment and say how genuinely grateful I am for the amount of time, thought and hard-earned experience people have put into this thread, and into my journey here generally. If anything I've written sounds like I am dismissing the advice I've received, that is the furthest thing from what I mean.

Reading this discussion, weighing the very real warnings about where these patterns often lead against the need to walk this path at my own pace, has actually been incredibly valuable to me. I genuinely appreciate the uncompromising perspectives here, even when they make me uncomfortable. Sometimes the words we instinctively want to reject are exactly the ones we need to sit with.

That has happened to me more than once on this site.

Whether someone's advice comes with a gentle hand or a necessary sledgehammer, I recognize that most of it comes from people who have walked through some version of the same hell and genuinely don't want to see another person suffer unnecessarily.

I may not always follow the advice exactly as someone thinks I should. My timeline may not match someone else's sense of urgency. But that doesn't mean I haven't heard it. I am absorbing it. I am comparing it against what I am seeing in my own life. I am confronting things I would probably rather not confront, and I am slowly learning to trust my own judgment again.

That is a significant part of what this place has given me. One of the most valuable things this community has given me is access to perspectives from both betrayed and wayward spouses. Hearing from betrayed people has helped me recognize patterns, put words to things I could not explain, and understand that many of the reactions I thought were uniquely mine are shared by people who have walked this road before me. But I have also learned an enormous amount from wayward members who are willing to look honestly at what they did, how they justified it to themselves, what genuine remorse required from them, and what real change eventually looked like. I don't always agree with either side, and sometimes what I read is uncomfortable as hell, but having both perspectives has helped me see beyond my own pain without minimizing it. That combination has probably taught me more about infidelity, reconciliation, accountability, and even my own situation than hearing from only one side ever could.

So genuinely, thank you. Even when we disagree, and sometimes especially when we disagree, I appreciate the time and thought people here are willing to give to complete strangers trying to find their way through this shit storm.